I have been reading a lot of blogs lately that have been covering the gay marriage issue. I have put off posting on the subject because I know that a lot of people will not like what I have to say and because most people who feel as I do are not as nice about it as me.
On another blog, it was written that they would like to see someone post about this in a civil manner. Well, I don't think I will have a problem with that. I tend to be a civil kind of person most of the time. :)
My feelings on this issue are complicated and they definitely have a lot to do with my faith. As a Christian, I am not comfortable with gay marriage. I tend to look at the laws of God before I do the laws of man ... even if I, at times, break them ... both. But, I do know that I am first and foremost responsible to God, even if man can punish me first.
Now, I am all for gay people having legal domestic partnerships. I think that a surviving partner should be able to be a beneficiary of their partner's estate. I do believe gay people should be able to adopt. I believe they should be able to be partnered together legally. I think they should have all the legal benefits of marriage.
I just have an issue with it being called marriage.
I know ... but I cannot help it. It is how I feel, as I associate marriage with the joining of a man and a woman in the eyes of God. And, God says marriage is to be between a man and a woman.
And, I am sure some will call me a bigot for my feelings on the subject and that is okay. I know I am not. A bigot is "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
I am not intolerant of those who differ from me. And, as a Christian, I feel it is my duty to be tolerant as God says it is not my job to judge anyone else. To me, someone practicing homosexuality is no different than any other sin. I am friends with people that lie, who have stolen, etc. I sin at times myself. This is why I have quite a few gay friends, male and female, and I have for most of my life. I love them regardless of what they do just as they love me regardless of what I do. Truth be told, quite a few of them refer to me as a "fag hag" and I absolutely hate the term. Probably because it has "fag" in it and I don't like derogatory names like that.
Anywho ... I don't really have anything more to say on the subject, but before someone asks me if I think homosexuals are going to burn in hell ... let me give you my answer:
I know the Bible says that it is an abomination for a man to have sex with another man. I know that God will treat homosexuality as He does other sins. He will punish us for our sins. He will also forgive us for our sins. It depends on which route we choose to take. It depends on whether we will come to a believing salvation in Christ and repent of our sins (which means to turn away from ... also known as not doing them anymore). If we are saved ... we will go to Heaven. If we are not ... we will go to Hell.
I know some people say that gay people are born gay, but I do not know if that is true. Even if it is, I don't think it would apply to this though. We are all born with a desire to sin, but God expects us to strive not to.
So, it is complicated and it really is a subject I tend to leave to God. It's His world ... I just live in it.
You lost me at the joining of man and woman before the eyes of God.
You know, I got married in a Christian ceremony and to me it was about God and forever. I had to argue with the Minister over the passage I wanted read, you know, from the book of Ruth? He said it was about 2 women who were friends. I said i didn't care. Love is love and those words spoke of no greater love to me. More so than your basic *love is patient, love is kind* same ol, same ol....
but you know as well as I do, more people forget about the *eyes of God* and just get divorced when the going gets tough.
I have to say that that has to be akin to putting out God's eyes.
Marriage is a farce today, Angel. I couldn't morally use it as an excuse to prevent gays from enjoying a marriage ceremony. The men and women who have been joined *before the eyes of God* have pretty much beat the crap out of marriage being a serious institution.
Grrrrr.
So if 100 people do something wrong, that makes it right to do it your way because its already screwed up?
And there's nobody out there that is living their vows? Are you sure?
I can honestly say I understand your feelings on it, Donna, but it still does not change how I feel.
I do not care how many people screw up their marriages, the Bible still says what it says about it and I have to go with that. I know that it tore me up when my marriage failed, because I know what God says about that subject too ... but I tried real hard to stick it out ... unfortunately not everyone feels the same way and some feel it is easier to give up than work it out.
Most of our problems would have been fixed with time, as we were young. I married when I was 16 years old. I was still a baby. And, honestly, I had no business getting married. I wasn't mature enough to be a wife.
But, a million people can marry and not care one whit what God says about it and one million can divorce and not care one whit what God says about it. It is neither here nor there with me. I still have to stick with what I think is right and where my conscience leads me.
And, this is definitely one topic I thought and prayed long and hard about.
the thing is, if you're in for a buck you're in for a hundred.
Any person who divorces may not remarry according to the bible you like to quote. Any person who divorces and remarries is still an adulterer.
The whole religious quasi morality issue just yucks me out. I don't care what people believe or practice. I just think they should mind their own business and let other people live. It's ok to have morals and beliefs...it's not ok to tell others how to live based on them.
I'm not saying you're doing that. I am saying a lot of people are trying though. If a person has a religion they believe in, more power to em. They don't have to like what others do, but I don't think it's their place to try and stop it.
I'm not sure if Anton's question was to me...
I'm saying that all the people who yap about the sanctity of marriage are usually Christian and usually divorced. I find it hypocritical to criticize others ways of life when your own may not be *optimal*.
Yea there are people that honour their vows...I'm one of them. But I also don't care who marries whom. To me love is love and if people want to get married, fine.
I do not believe that specific religions are obligated to marry people. In fact, I know that you can be denied a ceremony (man/woman) if the priest doesn't think you're ready for marriage.
But if some religions decide they don't mind marrying gays, that's fine with me too.
While, I can understand your views, I must say I am a bit hurt as to how you presented them. As for the Bible I do like to quote, here is one for you that applies to what you said ...
Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.
If your spouse commits adultery and you divorce, you can remarry and will not be committing adultery in the eyes of God.
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I know you have strong beliefs. I do not.
But, is this part, "and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery." not how it sounds? Like the person who married her would be an adulterer?
See that's the thing. Old testement...new testament...whichever fits the bill for most people.
No, I don't have a lot of good things to say about Christians in general altho I believe in Christ. Reason being is because where Christ managed to keep his mouth shut, many Christians just can't.
I know too many Christians who are decidely un-Christian.
And my feelings have nothing to do with you. nothing.
It is okay, Donna :) I got a little touche' over the remark about me quoting the Bible. Especially since I try very hard not to throw scripture at people, but just talk about how I personally feel about them.
As for that scripture, I will put it in easier English and turn it around. The meaning will remain the same, it will just be easier to understand. :)
Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.
And, I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away her husband, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and she that marrieth him when he is put away committeth adultery.
When a wife divorces her husband, except for him screwing around ... and she marries someone else ... she is committing adultery with her new husband. And the woman that marries her ex-husband is also committing adultery by being married to him.
----
So, you see, the exception here is whether or not your spouse cheated. If you divorce your spouse for cheating on you, you can remarry without committing adultery. Any other reason puts you in the adultery area.
Also, one must remember that repentant adulterers are forgiven of that sin. They are washed white as snow to God.
And, as you can see, I have spent a lot of time on this one. :) But, then again, once upon a time it was my dream to be a preacher.
As for the way some Christians behave ... I know what you mean and there are times they get on my nerves as well ... but then I remember that no one is perfect and unfortunately some people do use the title Christian for an excuse to be a bigoted, holier than thou, better than everyone else ... butthole.
I try to keep to "thou shalt not judge" and practice tolerance, even though it can be really hard at times. And, I focus on the fact that a lot of people think Christians should be sinless and perfect ... and we are not nor will we ever be.
If anything, I guess I am one of the "non-frontin'" Christians ... as I sin ... and I admit it. I don't try to hide that. I don't try to pretend that I am perfect. :) Only Jesus was ... and I will never come close.
But, that is the beauty ... as He loves me anyways ... faults, sins, and all.
BTW though, if you believe in Christ ... you are a Christian. :)
"It's ok to have morals and beliefs...it's not ok to tell others how to live based on them."
OK, I'll buy that, you can run with scissors if you want. But thousands of years ago some folks got together and codified what their morals and beliefs were. They came up with the concept of marriage and defined it as the union between a man and a woman. Two thousand years later after billions and billions of people have agreed to live by those rules some court in Massachusettes comes along and says we have to change the definition of a word.
Who's pushing their morals and beliefs on who?
Anton, I don't really want to keep this going on a blog that's not mine. And I'm not big on talking about religion. It's a no win subject...but...
Trying to get equal rights is not moralistic. Trying to have laws made that affords a person the same rights as any other is not moralistic.
Moralistic would be if those people insist the Catholic church or the Protestant church marry them.
Churches have every right to choose who they will marry and more power too them. But if a particular denomination decides that it feels fine about marrying gays, then I do not believe we have the right to tell them NO. It's their religion...their church. Let them make the call.
As far as civil ceremonies, religion has no place in the law and in equality related issues. No religion has the right to make law. Sure, you can vote, so do that. But when you let your religion cloud what governmentally right, that's why this country is so screwed up.
I don't understand why somebody's right to choose who they love and how they live their lives gives them a right to change the meaning of someone else's vocabulary.
And religion never made a law. People make laws. Why should Angel's beliefs not be considered and respected? Because they are rooted in a faith you don't have or don't respect?
I guess it all comes down to Brittney Spears being married for 55 minutes.
"Sure, you can vote, so do that. But when you let your religion cloud what governmentally right, that's why this country is so screwed up."
I have to disagree here. The constitution was built on the beliefs of Christians. The majority of law in the US was, period. Thou shalt not steal is a law that God gave and man codified. Thou shalt not commit adultery was a law God gave us and in many states is still law. Thou shalt not kill is a law God gave us and it is still on the books. And, honestly, I find that since people have pushed away from God and have tried so hard to push God out of everything ... well that is what is screwing this country up, IMO.
I am not saying that Christians never screw up this country ... as I am a firm believer that the Christian Right does a lot of damage. But, I have every right to vote my conscience on any issue. Everyone does and most people do. We vote based on our own principles, morals, values, and ethics. And, mine are based on my faith.
Just as non-believers had the right to force God out my children's schools and our court rooms ... I have the right to vote that I do not believe gay people have the right to get married. I want the Ten Commandments on the school and court room walls. I want prayer back in school. I believe I have a right to them too. Just as gay people feel they have a right to marry. Unfortunately, we do not always get what we think is our right.
If they ever put a revised law regarding domestic partnerships for gay people ... I will vote for it. As, I said, I believe they have every legal right to be partners with whomever they wish and be treated as a legal partner of that person. I just do not believe they should be able to call it marriage. And, I will never vote for marriage for them. My beliefs do not allow me to do that.
You're wrong here, Angel. The constitution was built on separation of church and state. Our forefathers came here and made this declaration so they could be free to practice whatever religion they wanted. But from the get go, it was based on separation of church and state.
My problems with religion lies within the fact that fanatics and zealots (the christian right) have done more harm than good. Eventually I get sick of hearing the pontificating and I close my ears to everything.
I am spiritual. I don't care if God is on the dollar or if the ten commandements are on a courthouse wall. My belief is that if people wish to be tolerated, they need to excercise the same tolerance.
That, unfortunately, is where everything goes to hell.
Do you honestly believe that no laws were created on the basis of religious or moral conviction?
Laws on sodomy? Oral sex? Marriage? Divorce?
Many laws were based on the religious convictions of the founders ... one cannot believe for one moment that they were not.
And, I am a firm believer in tolerance. But, I can be tolerant of others choices without going against what I believe to be right. And, part of tolerance is that I accept that others can do what they wish to do ... but, I do not have to support them in it.